PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

Shas_ · Post by **Shas_** » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:30 am

Deciding on a class to play?

Tldr:
- Finding your Character in race and class
- Quick links to good builds (lots of links missing atm)
- What to expect from endgame

Firstly: Class, Race, faction, racials..

1) Class
Which of the 5 base classes you pick is the ONLY meaningful and irrevertible decision you make on a character.
Mage
Rogue
Cleric
Warrior
Primalist
Also, because it can't be stated enough: Class presets before the character creation (purpose) are NOT permanent choices, only the 1/5 archetype! You can access all your unlocked souls from level 1 and easily run 10+ 'multispec' role presets, where you freely mix and match souls in a combination of 3, later.
The only thing for you to consider at the moment is your play style preference and each classes' performance at those jobs.

How does the feel of the class and animations suit you?
The overall *feel* of a character, even on lower levels, will very much persist throughout the levels and builds. If a thing feels weird to you- don't cope! Try around.

2) Presets? "Pick your purpose"

You are forced to select a Preset 'purpose' when creating a character- but all that really does is change your starter weapon.
Presets that are offered now were made a decade ago via player contest (voted by likes- not usefulness) and almost all of them are bad and/or outdated.
You are well off going custom from level 1.

Soul: A sub talent tree with max 61(31) points to fill
Role: A set of 3 souls and 76(39) points to distribute
Purpose: (bad) starter presets

I also added a link for f2p leveling progression to each class which got very positive feedback so far.

Though some souls- for example Necromancers- may be weaker in comparison, on level 1-60 you really can play whatever custom theme you want. Not everything needs to be cutting edge at all times so please do enjoy what you enjoy.
Feel free to also create a new post here if you are trying to recreate or found a nice new theme etc.
It's a big class sandbox and we love to see what paths people take.

3) Character creator
Do not get lost with the sliders in the character creator!
In game barber shops provide the same menu and sliders to play around with and you WILL make changes later!
Faction, Class, 'Purpose', Body, go!

Not every class will do everything equally good as group participants- or maybe just don't get the results one may expect from it while starting out.
For example Warriors are WAY better pure healers than Clerics. The game does not warn you that raw Cleric healing will be unfavored.
Things like this are a big reason for this post.

EU vs NA servers.
Change your region in the Glyph launcher's top right menu. Only account wide unlocks are shared between regions. Both regions can get you pve & dimension friends but NA is slightly more active so that's where most of the (instanced)pvp happens

Tldr: Pick your race on preference, class on mechanics and do the manual leveling at least for the 1st of a class.

Starfall Prophecy design..
Level 66 introduces legendary ability points which heavily ramp up the power of all souls- though some more than others..
Also, lvl 70 Pve will have an unrivaled best Eternal weapon early on. Buffs from that weapon and how well your abilities synergize with it will heavily dictate the 70 pve meta.
PvP has its own set of gear- and with abilities calculating slightly different there, it has it's own set of ideal builds and gearing process.
As a result, lvl 1-65 and 66-70 gameplay- and then level 70 pve/ pvp can play quite differently.

Pet- lovers:
A little warning:.
1-60: Pets will do what they are supposed to do.
61-65: Pets will lose effectiveness.
66-70: Pets start to die rather easily and drop to 4% of your damage.
Only excessive buffs from Beastmaster put its companions on 15-20%. Given how much attention and skill points the average pet takes, actively fighting pets left the meta after 65.
Pet classes are diverse and work, the companions will just leave a little bit to desire on the last level.

Note: If you plan to stay, the Ascended- Essentials- Pack contains ALL souls+Primalist and is generally the best deal.
https://www.cadrift.net/gameplay/purchasing/
This is the only purchase you would ever need.

Classes listed after dlc-dependency, most f2p friendly first.

: 111MAGE.png (90.47 KiB) Viewed 3145 times

Spoiler:

-----------------------------

: 111ROGUE.png (77.23 KiB) Viewed 3145 times

Spoiler:

-----------------------------

: 111CLERIC.png (109.64 KiB) Viewed 3145 times

Spoiler:

-----------------------------

: 111WARR.png (87.85 KiB) Viewed 3145 times

Spoiler:

-----------------------------

: 111PRIMA.png (118.91 KiB) Viewed 3145 times

Spoiler:

-----------------------------

Besides some painfully obvious outliers (Shadeborn), you can make very exotic concepts work if everyone is on board with it. The class system of Rift is marvelous so definitely find people who support you- and also encourage others to break new ground and make room for fun.

Rift has bugs- especially in this version of the game- some of them got wildly accepted after providing interesting new gameplay and some are exclusively embraced by the same few idiots. It is up to everyone to decide how they want to engage in this game.
If you only care about arbitrary win conditions while spitting on other people's time- what the fuck are you even doing.

cjayride · Post by **cjayride** » Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:50 pm

I'm a returning player with a few level 50-60s and just trying to understand the level 70 meta.

Let me get this right... at level 70 (not counting Primalist)
- Warriors are the best healers
- Mages are the best tanks

Talk about role reversal!
It's going to feel so odd to jump back on my Warrior Tank in former raid gear... knowing hes better off healing now because apparently the Clerics aren't cut out for it.

I welcome anymore input you can add! This writeup is nice! Was just a surprise!

Shas_ · Post by **Shas_** » Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:06 pm

Hey there!

Glad this helped.
And yes, Rift has this thing where ''catchup specs'' aka some dps for the healer class- end up being the best. While Mage has Pyromancer casts, warlock dots and Elementalist burst, Inquisitor has all 3.

Warrior split different tanking concepts onto different roles while Arbiter simply 'Combined the best of Void Knight and Rift Stalker'.
When having the choice, Warr tanks are a lower priority by the lack of group focused support- the tanking alone is doing great.
You can- by all means go all in on the Warrior tank. Holyroller on Na is known as diehard Void Knight main and really shined when he could 120% dodge the oneshots of a worldboss where eveone else failed.

You will defenitely never wipe on a warrior tank dieing that's for sure ;D - it's more of a team composition thing.

While one boss is notorious to pack heavy demand on tanks and the tank healer, 'RR- Void Knight' can defenitely run both jobs at once- only with an Archon doing support heals- solotank+healing a 2tank+1-2 healer fight- (again a team composition thing).
A once exclusive strat but the few who tried just barely couldn't pull it off.
That prestiege stunt is still for the taking if you decide to all-in on Warrior tanking.
Break new grounds and show what's possible!

Zehne · Post by **Zehne** » Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:32 am

I can't argue with the general consensus of the community about cleric heals being the least preferred in most groups.

But I do take issue with the 3/10 assessment.
Puri

Spoiler:

Sentinel

Spoiler:

Defiler-Healer

Spoiler:

Warden

Spoiler:

Wardocle

Spoiler:

tl;dr
Wardocle has the best defensive buffs in game while bringing all the healing you'd want with the most amount of utility.
In terms of healing capability Wardocle is a 8.5/10. (it can solo everything)

In prog groups i've kept tank + Raid alive after link dies on isiel for the remaining 1.5mins of fight.
- Only other healer in raid (no chloro-chon, no oT-heal, etc)
I've kept raid alive while cleansing everything in prog groups with other healer dead on AZ
I've kept tanks alive through Golems in IRotP with >5x stacks

In terms of utility Wardocle is 8/10. (it is only missing the super niche things like having a purge or interrupt as healer)
In terms of ease-to-play Wardocle is a 4/10. (significantly lose healing output if mis-managed or 'played dumb').

I don't say that lightly. I play druid effectively on every fight except isiel. Wardocle is just as/more complex than Druid( it has a nearly infinite skill ceiling (it is a highly dynamic spec))

Shas_ · Post by **Shas_** » Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:38 am

Hey thanks for the input!

- Puri- beyond niche, it has unaddressed bugs that put it below any minimum expectation. Slow, mana hungry, absorb caps, divine favor.

- Sentinel- Besides it's atrocious healing distribution, it's even more braindead than Warchanter. You pretty much click through the raid and spam L. Healing communion It counts as st invocation for whatever target. Not even fun to use and bad bad upwards potential besides Exuberance.

- Warden. Interesting, i was a Warden main for the longest time. Somehow, the 1.5s gcd was perfect and demanded just that extra bit of planning.
Able to soloheal many (most) 65 bosses and Raidrifts simply by being a badass healer design to this Legendary abomination. F Divine Favor. The only real issue is- Warden is best used on 20 mans with demanding healing mechanics. Neither 20 mans nor aoe healing mechanics exist (It's just constant input/ output) so you can't even try to cope.

The worst part of them all: Each and every Legendary of the Cleric heals absolutely suck and goes completely against what the soul does and needs.
They are quite more fun without Legendaries!

Wardocle would be listeed udner support, every single support can provide heals. While Oradcle is the good, Warden the bad part of it.
- I honestly would like to avoid promoting it. Not only did the Open Water rework bred a generation of Effusion-spammer but everyone who was asked to be a semi-regular Doki main in my time got depressed (sorry Claushgg for the pain).
It's pretty spammy. You may jump in a triangle on Silgen to keep things interesting. Besides that, it's best healing potential(Exccess) is based on a Warrior paying attention- which makes it beyond unpredictable.
while playing Defi, getting behind Geysir+ Oracle is a pretty short walk and i guess alot of people on Oracle who care enough about the position would come up with it anyway. But either effusion- or geysir spam getting shelved rather quickly.
1sec gcd 'spam' with uptimes- Defi provides similar gameplay but better.
Best defensive buffs you mean Reef Barrier? I don't think that excuses torturing someone with it. It is a nifty design, has the utility you mentioned and even a second gear but it gets absolutely dumpstered by Defi.
Both as Defi and Docle you want the Tank Trinket 100%- so why not just tank while at it.
Defihealer, Support. Well it's a Defi-heal-tank. Solohealing stuff on it is more of a bonus. Given that you CAN pull it off relyably when everyone is just paying some attention gives it S tier for upwards- potential. Soloheal tank on 800k+ dps. Yes, sir.

The Rating tries to not be just my assesment but an overall expectation of performance + expectable long time enjoyment with the setup.
May have been the general disapointment how terrible the Legendaries the core gameplay make vs SL/nmt.
I'll recheck them another time and may adjust a thing or two. I called it 'the expected minimum' what number would you give that?

Thanks for the input! Please do check out Druid i know we had some talks about things on it.
Maybe you know a way to guarantee to unchain the pet etc.

Zehne · Post by **Zehne** » Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:58 am

Shas_ wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:38 am Somehow, the 1.5s gcd was perfect and demanded just that extra bit of planning.

Yes and no. If you paid attention you could get around it. But when/if you were ever forced to use pools/effusion, you need to either continue using them, or you'd encounter a major heal gap (instant gcd -> 1.5secs later->start casting 1.5sec cast

And if you could manage it, in nmt+ you'd track your Faith's Reward stacks so that you'd go from a 1.5 sec gcd to a 0.5(or 1.0) sec cast (2-2.5 sec gap) to 1.0( 0.5) sec gap -> 1.5 cast (2.5 or 2.0 gap).

^ Which is basically minimizing the gap in heals when transitioning from instant cast to casted heals.
^Or if you could time it correctly and tank taking st dmg from boss, you could use orbs to mitigate this.

Anyways, point is that the 1.5sec gap in heals is already bad. But warden would force you to have 3 second gaps b/c of it's other abilities/mechanics. That is why it is garbage for this expansion. People arn't dying from a lack of hps. They are dying from not having heals exactly when they are needed.

Wardocle completely mitigates this by keeping every ability instant cast. So that major downside of warden is gone (and that downside is HUGE in this expansion).

Able to soloheal many (most) 65 bosses and Raidrifts simply by being a badass healer design to this Legendary abomination. F Divine Favor. The only real issue is- Warden is best used on 20 mans with demanding healing mechanics. Neither 20 mans nor aoe healing mechanics exist (It's just constant input/ output) so you can't even try to cope.

The worst part of them all: Each and every Legendary of the Cleric heals absolutely suck and goes completely against what the soul does and needs.
They are quite more fun without Legendaries!

Shas_ wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:38 am 1sec gcd 'spam' with uptimes- Defi provides similar gameplay but better.

The issue here is that spamming geyser/effusion only is super low level play of wardocle. Playing it to a higher level you stop having nearly as much spam. It's still alot, but it's definately alot less than what defiler does.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:38 am Given that you CAN pull it off relyably when everyone is just paying some attention gives it S tier for upwards- potential.

Which is where I differ.
Great healers can keep potatoes alive in raids.
Good healers can keep bad players alive in raids.
Decent healers can keep average players alive in raids.
Bad healers either let everyone die, or barely keep great players alive.

By that definition, defiler-healer isn't capable of being great/good. It requires that everyone understands that your heals are quirky. Which is why I said earlier that it is capable of meeting the minimum only. You can be the best defiler-healer in the game, but you can't save the person who stands in aoe when no golems are alive on beligosh.

Anyways, I have put alot of thought and optimization into assessing the current meta of healing in the game. I've done alot of testing in/out of raids.
Explaining my reasoning for things would require explaining basically every fight in game right now. It would be very long.

Setting everything aside though. Anything a liberator can do, a wardocle can do.
Wardocle also has more utility than liberator.
Wardocle also has buffs.
Everything included, wardocle is stronger.
Liberator isn't good because of healing. It's good because derps can play it well enough to not cause raid wipes.
Yet somehow, most raids prefer a liberator, even when you give them the option of both.

Zehne wrote: ↑Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:32 am I can't argue with the general consensus of the community about cleric heals being the least preferred in most groups.

^Which is why I said that first/foremost.
The problem is, if you never tell people that cleric is an option, everyone will just continue believing it isn't.

Shas_ · Post by **Shas_** » Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am

Not entirely shure what those posts are all about now tbh.

I forgot to put in Docle because it's a scuffed fast food healer that nobody used for 4 years of my time. Besides maybe on Silgen as overkill cleanse-bot.

There is a difference between healer that got everyone's back and heal carry, who plays the game for everyone.

Warden- like Puri is kung fu healing with gcd being your primary ressourc. Sync up incomming chunks- even if that means waiting for a second. Uruluuk doesn't even need monsoon with the boulder ticking so slow. It was fun because the healing picture and incomming chunks allowed to reduce healer spots by desicive timing. Another way to face doom chunks like a messed up Goloch (no protective soul active) giving multiple quick >50% aoe chunks within seconds would be an early Wave of Renewal only for it's returning tick, cancelbuff Faith's Reward , Hardcast Cataract- Effusion. Able to outsource gcd's and have all 3 'impact' in direct successtion - Cataract>Effusion>Wave in one gcd. Nowadays i think you would just Spirit Sight+Oversoul afk through it.
When you avoid wipes left& right by decisions- not gcd spam or free win buttons. Least that's what got me hooked.

The last post just confirmed the healer rating really. A dedicated Cleric healer is misplaced and tolerated at best.

I get it, you like Doki but i stand by it that everything you mentioned where it exceeds at can easily be done by a Titan - and the 5% is the only reason to even consider it.
Would you bring a Lib with Ttb or a Bm Lib hybrid if it had 3 cleanses? That's Doki without Support buffs.
Bard/Oracle is an overall dmg loss if heals aren't required so even the 'need' for a soft sup is on the lower end with C/R Tanks easily unlocking the 5% whenever.

Dht scalps away on dmg, tank& raw healing to do 5 (five) jobs at once. And yet it still CAN heal-carry. A couple times now Isiel was finished with a dead Chanter. That's 6 jobs nobody else wants to do combined in one package. (Tank, heals, buffs, damage, cleanses, dedicated heals)
Doki is amongst the worst of the dedicated healer,
Def is only providing baseline heals. But baseline heals are already overkill 95% of the time in Sfp.

And no to the Lib=Brainless. It's a hard overkill most of the time and can perform on low efforts - but ML is designed to combine the best of Chloro and Warden for exactly those groups where people collect avoidable damage at unpredictable times (literal deathwish) by being 2 healer in one (baseline& dedicated).
Though it can fall apart pretty hard when played like a docle. A Lib healing through 2stacked missiles is not onebutton.
Not sure what Liberators you met so far but a proper one uses a 3stack Mass Casualty Response as 1s gcd default active heal- giving it the ralyable rapid chunk-healing of Defi/Docle. Defenitely the least understood aspect which some people like to ignore for the far inferior Group Assistance/Deliverance. Ofcourse Libs then look bad.

Zehne wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 1:58 am You can be the best defiler-healer in the game, but you can't save the person who stands in aoe when no golems are alive on beligosh.

1) With no Golems up, Shaman can healing Breath, Warrs I'm with you! Tanks surely have something. A 61Justicar can soloheal tdem c'mon.
Link of Misery + Husk of Indifference on yourself out-mitigates anything in Em Beligosh.
2) Tdnm: 3 zones need 9 Flames. That's 5 Golems giving 10 flames. Taunt one flame off from one pack since a blue zone can consume 4 though only needing 3.
The average pug even uses 6 Golems. That's 3 potential flames to snack with Provoke and keep as a pet.
You want to kill Golems outside the blue one way or another- Tank then does an aoe swing and you taunt one flame every 2nd golem away- sving the need for a 6th.
Who else can casually pull this off besides a Warlord.
(And doesn't that sound infinitely more interesting than Effusion?)
3) If someone tries everything to die there, let him collect that experience- especially when managing to die in tdem- since when else to learn about avoidable damage? I rather see new people take a slap and try better next time.

The lack of a Healing Breath to heal one scrub once in 4 years is not pushing Dht from being a #1 performance workhorse. Spiff is also not rated on how well it fights in casual open world. Is it flexible? Hell no.

Why would you save him?
If a Warrior or Cleric dies on Beligosh they have no need for the Beli weps anyway and should naturally have lower priority on drops, simple.
Clerics have Hb/Ww or Jp.
Ele have an instant 100% selfheal, Prima onebutton has ignore death and Zaphyr, melee pl has Jungle rush, Rogues retreat and otd.
And Warriors who need help at all is a different topic alltogether.
Not like someone is absolutely helpless over there with no time to make up for their own mistake.
If you like that person but want to keep the shock value of suddenly taking unhealed damage, popp Link of Misery on him and Husk of Indifference on yourself. Defenitely enough to give someone time to figure out 'what is happening and how to get out of fire'.

Only chaos happenig these days is people pulling random stunts to actively kill themselves and each other.
Cutting dps to babysit through a dps causing trouble. Vs letting the shitter learn a thing. (Speaking Beligosh).
And why even use a Bard/Oracle on 1st nm. A simple Chlorochon with the Tank doing spotheals is the ideal zombo combo for everything.

Doc makes cleansing easy. And is more forgiving than past Warden. But it's a support still. Without cleanses, Silgen wouldn't even need more than what most Tanks bring along and Bard/Ora's 5% is an overall loss on 200k when the healing isn't needed.

Yes i understand i forgot to put Docle in and i'm really surprised someone genuinely enjoys it's dynamics.
I defenitely see your point in having a very forgiving spampackage for chaos proggies..
But i think you allso do enjoy niche specs.
You wouldn't recommend Druid as standalone damage just like you wouldn't recommend Docle as main healing worth starting a Cleric for.
Cleric would get a 5/10 on Damage if it only had Druid, dispite it's potential.
And that's what this whole post is about.

Thanks again for the input
I'll give Doki a fair spot when you or someone make a fresh post about it. 'Spam this' as you mentioned is not the way with it and not worth promoting.
I'm pro diversity in compositions fo sure.

(baseline&dedicated? Could call it sustain& burst or w/e. Whoever runs a separate healing stream independent of what is happening- Chloro hybrids, Cadence, Soulshroud is baseline- or support heal (though that term is misleading).
Ga required almost no baseline so Puri could solo 3/4 by dedicated timing alone without hots or spam.
Old Warden was capable both for example (Devine Favor heavily overcharging the baseline aspect) hence the godly solo potential.
Etcpp
Doki only has Effusion/Cataract+Ripple as dedicated options which are barely meeting the requirements being more than gloryfied sustain.
Glacial Mark may be the most 'dedicated' heal mechanic of Doki.

(Doom chunks? Incomming damage that happens outside of expected 'high damage' mechanics. Usually alot of impending hard hits that need quick thinking and the synergy from more than one ability/ cooldown to survive. Usually from messed up mechanics. Only a few people may notice what clutch plays you just prevented a guaranteed wipe with but surely notice if you don't. Stacked missiles or Tarjula overheal would count as that.

-----------------------

I see healer in gearshifts.
> Warden hots, Geysis, Cadence or Salvation are 1st (baseline) Using Geysir rather random to farm buffs in this example.
> Cataract/Effusion or active Misery are 2nd (controllable output)
> Pond/ Downpour is 3rd (clutch and no value from random use)
> 4th would be irreplaceable unique utility to overcome certain mechanics (Monsoon/ old Wg/ old FoL/ old Defi Links, now Weapon Brothers)

Cleric is not really providing desireable 3rd and 4th for anything Sfp which makes it easily replaceable.

Again, thanks for taking the time it's really interesting to see. I may re visit the categories.

Zehne · Post by **Zehne** » Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:04 am

Missing one of my points majorly.
All of your talk about beligosh is about people besides the healer making sure to keep themselves alive. My point about defiler is that is required since you CANNOT do it yourself. Defiler is a healer that can't heal the people who need it most (derps).

And this is off target again. I'm trying to say that cleric does have a very strong healing spec in this expansion.
You stated that clerics were a 3/10 for healing. I mention the downsides of defiler-healer, and you're constantly telling me how defiler-healer is actually super great. It is a little confusing, but I do honestly get what your points about defiler-healer are.

When everything goes right, defiler-healer is nice.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am Bard/Oracle is an overall dmg loss if heals aren't required so even the 'need' for a soft sup is on the lower end with Tanks easily unlocking the 5% whenever.

I don't think you understand. When heals are required you can use a wardocle. Not a mage/warrior/prima/rogue. If heals are needed, a single wardocle will do the job.

And any arguments about 'Just use chloro-chon + tank heals' is mute. Just because it's possible, doesn't mean the other people in your party are capable.

The runs I do weekly:

AZ
- Lib + Wardocle
- Lib + Chloro chon
- Chloro-chon + heal tank
Isiel
- Link + Wardocle
- Link + tact-bard
- Link + Chlorochon
- Link + 58Lib (maclib)

Just because link + chlorochon can pull it off, doesn't mean it's the best setup for every group. Most groups cannot pull that off.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am Doki is amongst the worst of the dedicated healer.

Why? You say it's the worst but provide no basis. It's already established that it has the best defensive raid buffs in game. So to say it's the worst you have to prove it has a major downside that vastly outweighs the benefit of free buffs on top of healing.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am but ML is designed to combine the best of Chloro and Warden for exactly those groups where people collect avoidable damage at unpredictable times (literal deathwish) by being 2 healer in one (baseline& dedicated).

Wardocle does the same thing, but has buffs on top of it. Maclib brings phalanx, but wardocle brings 5% 2% raid dmg mitigaion 100% the time. An extra 10k hp to everyone in raid, and ~10-15k hp for dps from the 5% stats buff. Geared tanks get ~20k extra hp from the 5% stat buff.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am Though it can fall apart pretty hard when played like a docle.

I don't know what you mean by that. I've said before that wardocle has a super high skill ceiling. There are a million ways to play warden/wardocle 'correctly', but several trillion ways to do it wrong.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am A Lib healing through 2stacked missiles is not onebutton.

For me, I have refreshed all maintenance before missle storm is cast. Then I single target hot 1 of the 2 missle storm targets before the aoe starts.
If someone isn't running with missles I hit divine favor + ripple. Then It's Healing effusion spam (up to ~8gcd's until half mana), then it's toggle on regen and continue spam if still needed.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am Why would you save him?

Why wouldn't you save him? Finish the fight, tell them that standing in stuff is bad. Purposely letting people die is the complete opposite of what a healer is supposed to do.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am But it's a support still. Without cleanses, Silgen wouldn't even need more than what most Tanks bring along and Bard/Ora's 5% is an overall loss on 200k when the healing isn't needed.

You keep calling wardocle a support, but it's a full fledged healer and a support. I've never argued for playing wardocle as a support healer or half healer. It is a full healer. You bring it when you need heals, and it can fullfill the role by itself.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am But i think you allso do enjoy niche specs.

Possibly, but that's besides the point. I'm trying to get more people to play the specs because they are actually good. If more people played/practiced the specs they wouldn't be niche.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am You wouldn't recommend Druid as standalone damage just like you wouldn't recommend Docle as main healing worth starting a Cleric for.

The biggest reason I don't recommend druid is because it takes considerable practice to get it to a passing level of dps. For healing though, wardocle can get passing grades with about 1/5th the practice.

Also where we differ is that you only recommend playing Druid on 1 or 2 fights. I use Druid on every fight except isiel. And I only don't use it on isiel because no-one uses the melee tank strategy. If they did, i'd druid isiel in a heart beat (and honestly, druid would be supreme with how isiel's shields work). Also on that note, Druids biggest benefit is tarjulia in tdnm. You can cleanse yourself, you are melee/ranged hybrid, 100% mobile and have a 50% dmg mitigation c/d. You can have 100% uptime on the boss while basically all other classes put themselves at risk on tarj
^Ironically, unless you have a wardocle healing. Because with a wardocle cleansing/healing it is very hard for people to build up enough stacks to get in trouble.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:29 am Glacial Mark may be the most 'dedicated' heal mechanic of Doki.

???Wardocle doesn't have glacial mark. Glacial mark is absolutely terrible To get it you'd have to sacrfice some of the best talents warden.

I guess i'm now obligated to make a wardocle guide and ~5 page + explanation of fights and best practices.

Shas_ · Post by **Shas_** » Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:51 am

Note that i edited alot before you posted the quotes. Some things may be answered through that.

- High skill ceiling means different things for different people. I do respect that Eu and Na work differently. Though the most basic low effort way (meaning 'bruteforce heal through it') may not be held as benchmark. I find it- minmaxed or not- boring af. And the Eu people using it thus far grew tired and asked for alternatives. Sepe delivered on that.
Doki is an outdated artifact from when Dht was unknown and Clerics only had this and tank to excuse an invite.
Nobody uses or 'knows how to play it properly' because the people forced to use already quit.

- Defi is best used as part of a setup and strategy.
If you derp or run casual all day, it provides an offtank that does more than being afk overgeared on Hammer of Duty.

- Doki is used for everything that's not optimal. And then people best play what they enjoy. Not a single person i met enjoyed Doki or cared enough to go into details with it. When given the choice, Defi does the job in giving people enjoyable gameplay.

- Archon pretty much allways hits someone so i would give him first dab on the preferred version, then go from there.

- Your setups and Druid use apparently reflects 'fun first'.
I assume you have Excess on targets with Treatment.
It gets the job done in niche setups where you have a hypersweaty Doki and alot of people who need it.
It works, it does a thing. But it also makes for blend 'just kill it' weekly spam. Being but a satire of old Warden.

- Yes Druid would smoke on Isiel. I tried to promote a 1T meta but wasn't supposed to be. Maybe your weekly boys are up for it.

- You can just run the Berzerker Trinket for everyone on Tarjula and not even lose damage. The stacks don't even matter tbh. Everyone occasionally punches a soul (without uncontrolled aoe) and that's that.

- Letting people die- ofcourse it's a power move and a tradition for a decade. Someone talking big or expecting free carries, fuck em. People standing in fire as Tempest are the same who exploit eoa. Do nothing and get fat loot. Who cares.

- Glacial mark as how it's mechanic is designed with transfereable gcd/cd value, not directly the 70 throughput.

- Salvation has a seeker mechanic.

- Recomending something or using it yourself are different things. I did use Doki occasionally for Silgen due to the 'jump in a circle' st cleanse. But was it fun?

- I get it, you enjoy it. If you like to promote it do consider sharing your experience. Clowd added the spoilers to keep the layout clean.
Don't make it sound like i'm putting a burden on you. Either you care sharing something you like or not. So far you seem to care.

We are turning in circles and i'm getting tired of this.

You say there are million ways to play your Doki and you did the grind perfecting all fights. Yet it all greases of mediocrity, spending all days working around avoidable issues. An Azra Lib does not need a Doki. May aswell tank it.

Reminds me of when a certain Rogue was having a triade about his speacial Azranel setup- yet his own Bard-Tank was the only dead weight.

Go share your experiences, A post, videos whatever! Love to see it. Just stop telling me how much 'deeper' and more'suffisticated' it is please.
I may change up that rating for crying out loud.
Doki by all means is just a thing that direcly and indirectly- makes people quit.
All my 2019 Rogue& Warr stuff only exist because Doki was too insufferable to continue on Cleric.

And no. Having an addon that shows hots in raidframes and then keep Spray& Stream up with Ripple& manual refreshes is not fun when 'constant heal spam' is the goal. Just a worse PseudoHealTank for that gameplay type.

Looking forward for some Doki goodness by someone who loves it! (first i met). I figure everything onward should be based on that rather than the arbitrary dirt tossing here.

Oh and because it's the internet and things can percieved differently.
I do not hate you or think you or anyone is stupid for enjoying it. I do apprechiate open talks and would love to see more people posting their experiences. Karmel removed her Defi post which was a littlebit shocking. Though i had a bucket list of 'finishing posts' and felt like commenting one some, i wouldn't like all reads to just be my crap here when there- as you said- are a million ways to play things.

To 58 mac lib- that's a pretty old version. Try 54 with 4Warlord. Then have Recovery Posture popp Positive Reaction on yourself. For tankhealing it acts like a scuffed Battlesong. Corrective Measures is not that great on Mac and terrible to keep up.
Taunteronis also let you take 2 stacks on Arakhurn (and 1 on Vindicator if fancy) + casual taunt (and pull) tricks as mentioned on td Defi.

Zehne · Post by **Zehne** » Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:23 am

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:51 am It works, it does a thing. But it also makes for blend 'just kill it' weekly spam. Being but a satire of old Warden.

You say alot of people got tired playing it. That's fine. But being bored of a spec doesn't invalidate it's effectiveness. I'm bored of shaman. I'm bored of Inquis.

Healing in this expansion is completely different from every other expansion. So every healing spec is a satire of before.

Shas_ wrote: ↑Sat Jul 16, 2022 8:51 am I did use Doki occasionally for Silgen due to the 'jump in a circle' st cleanse.

Why? You can cleanse every single debuff with the aoe cleanses while healing.
That allows the meta-chon meta-chon.

PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

Re: PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

Re: PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

Re: PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

Re: PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

Re: PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

Re: PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

Re: PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

Re: PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one

Re: PICK A CLASS - Swipe the right one